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The meaning of life

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Doughnut Jimmy View Drop Down
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  Quote Doughnut Jimmy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The meaning of life
    Posted: 16 Sep 2010 at 7:56pm
A question for all of us prompted both by discussions on here and stuff I've been asking myself in real life.

What do you want out of life? What's it all about?

Given the range of people on here I thought it would be interesting to hear peoples views, I'll try and post my own later.
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  Quote DrWho7Freak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2010 at 10:51am
Well I believe that what I want out of life is good health, happiness, security, moral stability and a beautiful planet to live in free of pollutants, war and general evil.  I believe that I am going to get that as I follow the bible and do not twist the bible to suit modern day standards.  I also believe God will step in and sort things out fairly soon.
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  Quote Jano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2010 at 12:14pm
We can do this without getting too noisy I think Smile 
 
I have a need today to get contemporaneous (great word huh! LOL). As the 'oldest' Christian congregation (I don't think we have any Armenians/Greeks here to upset do we? If so then OK, the 2nd oldest for it reallly doesn't matter too much Wink) the religion I was brought up in is in the news in the UK at the moment with this little nugget. I don't want to get into a discussion about the financial niceties of the visit as that's just political imperatives. Like it or not the Roman Catholic Church is the power behind the government buildings in far too many Third World countries and so this particular news item is quite telling in another way, as it would help everyone on this planet to keep on talking to the leader of an outmoded, arrogant, self-centred and deluded, deliberately ignorant and, from some perpectives downright cruel and oppressive faith system. And keep on asking them why they can't re-examine this over-riding subject properly -
 
 
How are Third World countries kept that way? Why is AIDs so rampant in Africa that certain sections of society in some of the black countries appear to be developing resistance to HIV incubating into the full-blown disease? Is it really, truly right that in this beleaguered day and age that every possible sperm/soul is sacred?
 
Or is it to do with using the oldest trick in the book (and I use 'trick' deliberately to tie in with the oldest profession in the world however old you think it is) to exercise power over and to control human beings regardless of their relative wealth or education through their fertility and sexual needs. Because effectively that's what happens when sex itself is used as a tool to keep people 'good' or 'bad' depending on how you look at it...
 
And it's not just the Roman Catholics of course - the other 'Protestant' half of the Christian coin works just as well if you watched the clip to the end, because as well as aiding and abetting the irregulated procreation of children they also went out and made sex dirty and shameful as a kind of brainwash-method contraception. Crazy? Think about it...
 
So my meaning of life has been formed by the Holy Roman See, but not in the way they wanted it to be. There's more to it of course, and not everything pedalled by Catholics around the world is 'wrong' at all, but for a faith that talks a great deal about love and compassion and understanding, they've done a great job of stilting and oppressing and stifling the natural growth and attitudes in the world's poorer communities almost from the moment that their messiah breathed his last on a wooden cross in Judea - or ascended to heaven if you'd rather. The 'rules' certainly seemed to flow thick and fast very quickly and in direct contradiction to Jesus' original teaching at times...
 
But again, that's politics for you, because that's certainly what Catholicism is in a half-assed way (they're really not too good at it at the highest level). Wacko Science sometimes needs a good wash and brush up too, so I can assure everyone this is an inclusive rant, but I've said enough for now.
 
Discuss...
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  Quote Doughnut Jimmy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2010 at 9:49pm
Yes, lets keep this discussion civilized. Firstly I'll say I don't mind what people believe individually but what large organisations including churches do is a public matter and therefore should be discussed, I daresay the rest of this will offend some people so explain to me where I'm wrong. Smile

Lots of bits to respond to in your post but I'll start with a quote from the article:
He told the magazine: "England today is a secularised, pluralistic country. When you land at Heathrow Airport, you sometimes think you'd landed in a Third World country."

Asked whether Christians were discriminated against in the UK, he said: "Particularly in England, an aggressive neo-atheism is widespread. For example, if you wear a cross with British Airways, you're discriminated against."

I'd argue that the first sentence is a good thing but he obviously disagrees, see the second sentence which could charitably be described as unfortunate - but plenty of other public figures have made really stupid statements so I'll let it go.

The next paragraph is more interesting, I'd love to know what he means by neo-atheism (when did it go into such a recession it's had to be restarted). Sadly I can't remember the details of the BA story but I don't think it was a particularly anti Christian rule. As so often all his comments are soundbites with no real facts or figures to back them up so no useful basis for further discussion Disapprove

The catholic church's teachings against condoms or any other form of contraception are indeed infuriating and I don't see how they can be justified. Both on the HIV front and on the population control front. However the South African government has also been heavily criticized in the past for its approach to aids control, I wouldn't like to speculate how much of this might be due to concern for catholic aid funding, but I suspect it goes way beyond that so again it's not a failing unique to catholicism.

I could go on at length but its someone else's turn, I'll probably post more tomorrow

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  Quote Quark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2010 at 6:11pm
Oh dear... a more difficult question you couldn't ask. I was thinking about this almost all day, and I'm coming somewhere in range of an answer - of course, as always, my thoughts are more of a half-formed mush of ideas than any kind of structured english response, so I hope you'll forgive me if I go off on a tangent or ramble on a bit.
Though I am an atheist myself, I want to express that I'm not going to side against any religious views - but I will be sharing my own. I am a little unsure of where the invisible boundaries lie in this topic so please tell me if I do stray over them.Smile

Meaning of life, eh?
Considered from a point of view without God (or gods), the universe seems pretty bleak. We are a very small collection of organisms on a very small planet in a big, big space.
All organisms strive. This is a key point. They do not know this, but they all strive. Tigers strive for a next meal, a mate, domination, and so on. Viruses strive for replication, though they have no brain to think with. Humans strive... but towards what?

Of course, this was a simple question in the Middle Ages or some such time: Crops, water, shelter. If such things were plentiful, humanity could pour time into war, craft, art, or expanding discovery. But today, things are different - similar, but different. What does a society do when it has almost nothing left to achieve? We are still pushing the boundaries, of course, but they are slowing, and there is little left to accomplish in some fields. What happens to humanity that loses all purpose?

But what is the purpose of a jellyfish, or a bacterium, or a bird? It will grow, live, and die, and all the effects of its existence will be erased within a short time. Perhaps it will produce offspring, and they will no doubt follow this same path. And, if I will briefly remove religion from this equation, there was absolutely no reason for it to do so. Solomon - the clever chap - said as much. 'Everything is meaningless, everything under the sun is meaningless.' And he goes on to explain that, by logic, without God, existence is meaningless. And, yes, even though I'm a depressive fifteen year old from a broken century and he was the wisest man of his age, I have another theory. You are free to disagree, of course, and I could see why you might want to.

Humanity has always pushed boundaries in all directions. And some might argue that this is one thing that separates us from animals, that while they are content with their lot, we are forever pushing, allowing our descendants to enjoy the fruits of such labour. It is quite possibly the most selfless thing that many people have done. And this has been, I think, the top listed meaning of life - to allow those that follow it to go further. It is always the endless tasks, after all, that seem the most alluring. Isaac Newton himself said that 'we can only see further by standing on the shoulders of giants' - The meaning of every generation has been to be the foundation for the next. A never-ending task, into which we can pour our efforts. This, of course, is pointless. And I'll come back to that.

But let's go the whole hog. Let's say that we have pushed ourselves from our measly planet to the far edges of the universe, into every universe, every possible instance of reality - to the borders of the multiverse. Life in every form has evolved to its fullest potential. There is nothing left to accomplish. So, what then is the meaning of life?

To answer this - what is the meaning without it?

Take every living thing and remove it from existence. Let us say that life had never existed. We still have a universe, still totally finite. Nothing but rocks, gas, space, and chemicals.
I spent a long time trying to think of what the point of a universe is without life. It exists, but it does not, does it? Quantum mechanics tells us that something cannot exist without being observed - because, of course, if nothing knows it is there, how could it possibly be there - so a universe without life is a universe in a state of non-existence. It's there, but there's nobody to appreciate it. It might as well not exist.

But, you might be saying, many things don't observe the universe. A virus isn't even aware it even exists, let alone that it's crawling on the back of a creature on a  lump of rock hurtling through an infinite cosmos. I have no answer to this, other than the fact that these things respond to their environment (it's actually one of the acceptable scientific identifiers of life) so, in a way, they do know it's there, in a very small kind of way. And so, the universe exists. Aren't you glad?

So, perhaps you could argue that life exists to observe the universe - because without it, the universe might as well not exist. But who dictates this? Why must reality have an audience?

I have spoken to many scientists and science teachers alike, and many of them are indeed Christian or of other religions. Many of them do say the same thing: Studying science doesn't necessarily disprove God, and in some cases it even encourages you to, if not believe in God, believe in at least some kind of ethereal being. Sometimes existence seems to good to be true; The way atoms form, the way the big bang happened, the numerical absolutes of black holes - figures just drop into place, almost as if pre-prepared.
(As an aside, many still believe in evolution - that is a case of pure probability and genetic variation, and doesn't interfere with their belief except on certain occasions regarding the Scripture)

Others argue under the philosophy of 'we're here because we're here' - i.e, if the universe had not, by pure chance, worked, we could not be here to marvel at its perfection, and so couldn't comment on the fact that it wasn't perfect (which it was). A billion more realities might have perished in primeval fire or collapsed upon themselves as their atoms turned to mush, but because ours did not, we are here to observe it. And so, according to this, it was pure chance that every preset value in the universe was perfectly formed for everything else.

The meaning of life, I feel, is to observe the universe, lest the universe lose all purpose as well. But this lands us in an endless paradox, which makes physicists and philosophers alike feel very uncomfortable. But perhaps it is just as well that some things are indeed infinite - that life can, whenever possible, dedicate itself to filling a bath with a hole in it or pushing a rock up a hill then letting it roll back again. Because without it, life would reach a point, some time, when it simply loses all purpose.

Personal experiences reflect this, and I hope you don't mind if I bring computer games into this. Overcoming an RPG - side quests, secrets and all - is a truly massive and time consuming task, but once finished, you lose all reason to ever come back, ever play it again. There is nothing left to see. Nothing left to do. You will turn it off, take out the disk, and never put it back. This small universe has lost all purpose.

This is why I'm pleased to hear support for the theory of a truly infinite universe, with infinite space in every direction. Because as long as we have an endless task, an endless boundary to push, whether our efforts are meaningless or not, life will have a meaning.

And I'm sorry to have taken up half an hour of your time with this meaningless blubber.
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  Quote Jano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2010 at 6:34pm
Ah the nihilism of the younger generation! LOL That did make sense although it's some years since I looked at any Sartre Tongue
 
Will need another re-read before I come back, but I promise I will - nice to know you haven't given up though Wink
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  Quote Doughnut Jimmy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2010 at 8:48pm
Wow Quark that's quite a post! Lots of good science there but I have to say I don't find science a very helpful guide to the more abstract side of life.

I've very little patience with a biological approach to a purpose of life - ie go out and produce and raise kids to continue the supply of my genes, sounds about as attractive as Victorian instructions to capture the best possible husband and settle down - no thank you.

I think the problem with the eternal striving is that most of us have really very little effect on the world, you can work very hard for a year at the end of which you're knackered and burnt out but the strides you have made in improving even the bits of the world you have a direct influence on are small and you're effect on the world beyond that direct influence for most of us is unnoticeable. (Disclaimer - this particular opinion is subject to change at no notice when I become more enthused with the possibilities of my work again).
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  Quote Jano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2010 at 9:37pm

OK - couple of things that stand out in that and probably the most important one is to do with 'life was simpler when we didn't have so much 'stuff' in our lives'. People living in medieval times didn't have an industrial revolution, no computers, no TV, no vote, no microwaves etc. etc. etc.

This is not true. Life has not been, still isn't and will never be simple - for human beings.
 
One aspect of which is that life expectancy was considerably shorter back in the mists of time, unless you were pretty well off and very, very lucky. But that's just a hygiene and the advance of medicine thingie and rather trite so forget about that. Wink On a basic level what do we really do today that people didn't do in the past, from say, before the Renaissance backwards to the ancient civilisation in the Middle East (so Sumerian/Assyrians culture). I could say back to the last Ice Age but lets stick with literate societies so it's a bit fairer on the comparison front.
 
We rest on chairs or couches, have beds to sleep on, build houses/shelters, need to eat, keep warm, work/keep company with other people on agriculture, defence, civic facilities such as sewerage - have sex, raise children, make laws to govern society and so on.
 
So did our ancestors. Some things may have taken them more time because they didn't have high tech tools to keep their houses clean for instance - they didn't have them 50 years ago to some extent - for instance the house I was mostly brought up in to the age of 17 didn't have an indoor lavatory or any bathing facilities at all when we first moved in. Just because the technology wasn't there doesn't mean life was simpler - they needed all the same things we need day to day that we do now. In fact normal life was probably a lot more complex for most people in earlier times because they didn't have all our handy little gadgets to make life a little easier.
 
Even with science we're not necessarily that much more advanced in terms of what we know and are finding out. With astronomy - one science that's still got lots of things for us to advance with, a lot of what we do know now within the solar system anyway, was also observed and noted by priest in ancient Sumeria... We may do it better and more clearly but we're not necessarily any cleverer or more knowledgeable even. Just have more powerful tools and more knowledge that they had to get from scratch.
 
IQs in the Egypt of Rameses II were as good as they are in this 21st century - possibly higher even - but they didn't have quite so much free time to spend wondering what to use it for, because they only had their bare brains to think without books (or very, very few) and bare hands and muscles to keep their homes and families going. When they did have free time they spent talking to each other, having sex and/or generally planning an early night because they were dog tired and possibly quite happy having done their work, had a good meal, been kind to their children and maybe a little bit of what does you good with the wife - or the concubine - or the body slave. The politics of servitude and gender politics is quite another thing and possibly one that hasn't changed very much at all in over 10,000 years or more... Evil Smile
 
People and their needs don't change that much really - technology does, but not necessarily as much as you think it does. Part of our trouble today though is to do with pushing boundaries as you say and in that we're not as well off for the reasoning you worked out. Back with more later on. Smile
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  Quote Juggler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2010 at 9:37pm

I’m just pleased that I have implicit faith.

God created me, God has made some incredible things happen to me and he tested me by taking away the woman I still love and by giving me a stroke to deal with. Not a problem because I’m still alive and when I die I’ll be OK again and with the woman I love. In the mean time my faith in God won’t waver for a second.

I’m sorry if I’ve upset this discussion with my simplistic view of what is a very good idea for a thread but I think I’ve done what DJ wanted and I’ve been totally open and honest.

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  Quote Quark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 2:23pm
Sorry about that Jano - I may have generalized a little when saying that in the distant past it was a 'simple question'... and judging by the post you made to correct me, you can see why I didn't go too much into it Ermm. I've got a terrible habit of pasting the worn phrase of 'life was simpler/easier/better' over things when I darn well know it wasn't. I'm not implying life was simpler - I'm sure today's humdrum lifestyle is, for many, much more repetitive and simple than waking up every morning in the Middle Ages.
What I simply meant was exactly what you pointed out - people were just as intelligent, but had less time on their hands because of the lack of advanced technology.

I may have taken this question at face value slightly, answering what seems to be the meaning of life rather than what I think it should be. Sorry. I mean, if it's taking up space a little bit, I can remove it.
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  Quote Doughnut Jimmy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 3:22pm
@ Juggler - don't apologise I started this hoping we'd get a variety of opinions and simple is usually a good thing

@ Quark - don't delete anything on my account I think there's space on here for lots of speculation and thoughts (and if Jano say's your posts are too long just ignore her LOL). The initial question was vague partly because I wasn't sure exactly what I was asking. It would never have occurred to me to approach the question in the way you did so it certainly made me think, which is a good thing.


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  Quote Juggler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 4:16pm
Thanks for being so gracious DJ I didn't think you would be offended. As a simple man with simple needs I find simple is always the best option.
I also agree with you that Quark shouldn't remove anything he's written in this thread. One of Jan's greatest qualities is that she is all for free speech and she is always willing to listen to someone else's point of view.
I've read everything in this very interesting thread and I'm not offended by anything I've read. I don't understand some of it but as I've already said I'm not capable of writing long and meaningful posts.
 
When I saw this thread go on I hoped it would spark off some interesting points of view and I'm just pleased I wasn't wrong.
 
Nice one DJClap
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  Quote Jano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 4:57pm
Has no one noticed that I Heart long posts - mine or other people's? LOL
 
Never, ever delete unless asked to and only apologise where it's obvious someone needs one (in my case watch the smilies for an indication of how cross I am - there'll be more Angry and Confused and Censored if I'm taking exception ) - you'll know from the post believe me and so if I'm not saying it up front then it's fine. Wink
 
You may have observed from other forums that I'm quite happy to row in public (well not happy but willing to hotly debate Tongue) but not if it's going to wound anyone - the quieter I am, the more likely it will be that you get a PM telling you to shut up or tone down etc).
 
Carry on chaps - I have a headache so I'm going for a metaphorical lie down Wink
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  Quote Aikari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 5:25pm
The meaning of life? I don't know. Philosophical and retorical question it is. *nods* I never thought much about this.
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  Quote Doughnut Jimmy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2010 at 9:56pm
This is aimed as much at me as anyone else
Life is too short to be miserable so if there's things in your life you aren't happy with then for goodness sake get up and change them. Sometimes even looking beyond the rut you're stuck in can be enough to give you a new dose of enthusiasm and you realise its down to you to make the changes you want to see.
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  Quote Nurbor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2010 at 3:57am
Life is about learning the lessons that it takes to be that great person, even if no one ever notices what you do that makes you so great.  That and love is the most dangerous addiction of anything in the world, because everyone's perpetually seeking it from external sources when the supreme source of all that love the external makes you feel, is within you already.
 
Then again I stare at the one place I seem to be pulled to more than anywhere for 40 hours a week.   And they discredit me due to "lack of experience", the fools, limited by our crude matter our experience is not.
They lived their belief and if asked they would gladly die for it.Tell me now who in your glorious age holds such a belief? All that lives is born to die we must make the best of the time we are given
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  Quote captainmeme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2011 at 9:32am
Hmm... Interesting question. I personally would say that the meaning of life is to have a relationship with Jesus, and bring more people to him.

Or I would say 42 if I'm reading Hitch-Hiker's Guide.

Take your pick ;)
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  Quote Dagrun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2011 at 11:57am
Life didn't start for me until 50! (mostly down hill!)
Life is for living, learning and not making the same mistakes again! Very hard to do! So enjoy it! It's not a dress rehearsal.
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